Is Communities and Residents (C&R) Actually Unified?

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Does C&R comprehend Public Good and see beyond the pure monetary side in a Public Good?

When the CRL debate popped up thanks to Bernard Orsman AND THAT POLL, I decided to go ask a nice simple question to Auckland’s centre-right local body organisation ‘Communities and Residents’ (C&R) in both Facebook and Twitter. This was the answer from Twitter:

Same answer I got in the THE CRL AND THAT POLL CTD thread from Orakei Local Board Deputy Chair Mark Thomas. So that is all fine and a policy statement I would be inclined to follow providing the CRL started construction around 2018 (rather than 2015 as the mayor is pushing). However move to another rail project like the recently announced Pukekohe Electrification business case and that unification from C&R seems to fall apart rather quickly. To make things more interesting, it seems I might have exposed an Achilles heel from C&R in regards to public transport in Auckland and the cost/benefit situation:

I have asked C&R for their view-point on Pukekohe Electrification to which I will post as soon as I get it. But now check this Facebook thread in regards to the electrification extension:

• Another pipe dream from Mayor Brown and his supporters. We can’t keep putting things on the tab. Interested to hear from my colleagues Dick Quax and Cameron Brewer.

  

  Pukekohe train plan

  http://www.stuff.co.nz

  Electric trains could run to Pukekohe if Auckland Council approves a $102 million upgrade to electrify the line past Papakura.

  • Bob Murphy Don’t worry about your colleagues, worry about your constituents George Wood!!!!

     
  • George Wood OK Robert Bob Murphy, point taken. Just thought that Dick and Cameron could add their views.

    
    

    
    
  • Ben Ross I would be very careful going into opposition over the Pukekohe electrification extension. The project has a BCR of 2.1 which is higher than probably just about all (bar one) of National’s Roads of National Significance projects COMBINED.

    
    Further more the project which needs $80m can easily be covered with targeted rates and development levies over 15 years to cover the loan. 
    
    And last I looked Papakura and Franklin Wards (to which Pukekohe resides) are both under Centre Right councillors (even though Cllr Des Morrison has “quit” C&R). Those two Councillors would be fast backing the electrification projects unless they wanted to willing feel the wraith of their constituents to the point being tipped out by a Centre Left candidate who supports the electrification extension project

     
  • Bob Murphy When are we going to get the North Shore rail connection?

     
    • Ben Ross 2032-2040

       
    • Bob Murphy I’ll be OK for a ride on my 100th birthday then.
  • Daniel Sloan We should electrify the road. Why give rail a monopoly?
    • Ben Ross fried pedestrian – toasty 😛
  • George Wood Can’t see this happening too soon. Saw a metro system that was struggling in Kaohsiung, Taiwan. This is a city of 2.6 million and they badly overestimated the patronage they would achieve. Auckland is only getting 10 million on the rail per annum.

     
    • Ben Ross And as Campaign for Better Transport shows time and time again we under-estimate ours often badly. Onehunga being one – although Manukau was the reverse that can be easily fixed with The South Link

      
      
  • George Wood Can you see rail breaking even financially any-time in the future Ben Ross?

     
    • Bob Murphy No.

       
    • Ben Ross Dual question. Freight rail yes I can if Mainfreight and Fontera could run their own freight train services on the rail lines. As for passenger rail, I do not expect it to monetary wise as it is a public good that provides greater profits in the social and economic front than the pure monetary front – something Public Bodies and representatives miss

       
  • Scott Bovaird I’ve given up arguing against George it must break even philosophy

     
  • George Wood Why is that Scott Bovaird. Can’t we have fair and balanced debate?

     
  • Scott Bovaird Hahahah I think we sit on complete opposite sides of the fence. Also feels like you won’t acknowledge that there is more to public transport beyond will it pay for itself. Also you don’t need to convince me to tick your name next year
    • Ben Ross yet 😉

       
    • Scott Bovaird you’ll never convince me to live on the shore ben,

       
    • Bob Murphy If George stands for mayor you will get your chance Scott.

       
    • Scott Bovaird well if ya look below if george aligns himself with people like dick I’ll be doing everything to help other candidates

       
    • Ben Ross Sorry not running for mayor next year – value my sanity too much while I am still young :p
  • Dick Quax George I get accused of being anti PT which I’m not – use it quite a bit – however do get grumpy when I see how much public money just keeps on being poured into a 19th century technology – rail – to solve a 21st century transport problem.

    
    

    Scott Bovaird Im yet to see a reasonably legitimate alternative proposed dick. Until someone presents a business case that actually looks better than improving out rail system and then encouraging people to live near it your always going to be seen as anti PT
  • Dick Quax “Encourage people to live near rail” – just how do you do that – deal with reality not some fantasy planet which no one inhabits.

     
  • Scott Bovaird Ahhhh insulting my intelligence instead of actually dealing with the issues. … glad to see you’re a respectable representative of our community. Congratulations Dick you have reaffirmed my belief in why I would never vote cnr and will encourage everyone I possibly can to vote against you as well.
    • Ben Ross Not affiliated – just saying 😮

       
    • Scott Bovaird hahaha I would be distancing myself as much as possible ben cause I’m now in a very motivated place

       
    • Ben Ross An Independent Average Ratepayers’ View Shinning The Light at Issues in Auckland into the 2013 Local Government Elections

      Auckland YOUR CITY YOUR CALL
      
      Emphasis on independent 😮

       
  • Kane Glass It goes by the name of Planet Planet Rail

     
  • Scott Bovaird Also this is probably why you Franklin member of cnr quit because you don’t give a hoot about south of Manukau

     
  • Millie Liang Gentlemen.. Maybe I aren’t thinking straight..If everyone is worried about overcrowding and having to demolish 50-80k of houses in the city in the near future to accommodate everyone why do they want to spend large amounts of money on rail tracks from say Pukekohe/Helensville into the cbd….It just I remember the disaster that has unfolded at the Newmarket station square when all the pr 4-5yrs ago said there was going to be within 5-10yrs, 17,000 train passengers using the station everyday with trains capable of arriving every three mins….At the time I thought this must only be pr purposes to get funding as there was no way there that many people going to get off in Newmarket unless a city was going to be built at the end of a line, and then why head into the city any way…just my thoughts.

     

The dis-unity within C&R could very well extend from this article published in the Herald a couple of days ago:

Councillor quits ‘too urban’ C&R

By Bernard Orsman

Auckland councillor Des Morrison has resigned from Communities & Residents, saying the right-leaning ticket is too urban-centric and he wants to focus on rural issues before retiring at next year’s local elections.

“I’m not as close to C&R as I was,” said Mr Morrison, the Franklin councillor and chairman of the rural advisory panel.

He said he was still working with C&R but wanted to use his last year to focus on key issues for the rural sector.

The resignation of Mr Morrison, a popular figure on the council, is a blow for C&R, which has struggled since the first Super City elections, winning only five seats on the 20-strong Auckland Council.

…

The resignation of Mr Morrison highlights the failure of C&R to work with right-leaning independents, such as Cameron Brewer, Calum Penrose and Sharon Stewart, to build a united opposition against Mayor Len Brown’s left-leaning majority.

Hmm problems behind the scenes? Again check my THE CRL AND THAT POLL CTD thread as Bernard and I probe C&R on the CRL for responses and history.

However the Achilles Heel of C&R was exposed in the Facebook thread which I placed in bold:

• George Wood Can you see rail breaking even financially any-time in the future Ben Ross?

   
  • Bob Murphy No.

     
  • Ben Ross Dual question. Freight rail yes I can if Mainfreight and Fontera could run their own freight train services on the rail lines. As for passenger rail, I do not expect it to monetary wise as it is a public good that provides greater profits in the social and economic front than the pure monetary front – something Public Bodies and representatives miss

     
• Scott Bovaird I’ve given up arguing against George it must break even philosophy

Okay there is a difference between flushing money down the loo and subsidising a public good such as public transport – especially as I mentioned the wider economic and social benefits often outstrip the pure monetary cost!

Electrification to Pukekohe, the Manukau South Link and the City Rail Link are three public transport projects that provide wider and larger economic and social benefits in comparison to pure monetary cost (often expressed in capital to build and then the operating cost to run the thing). While the central government’s Roads of National Significance defy basically everything including monetary cost.

So the question ratepayers must ask to Council and Local Board candidates next year when it comes to projects that will crop up in the debate: While a program loses on the pure monetary front (such as public transport), does the program’s economic and social benefits outweigh that monetary loss?

There is more to programs than dollars and cents folks, and C&R could be exposed on that front especially if Pukekohe Electrification is anything to go by!

Now I wonder if C&R will respond to this? I’ll wait and see :O